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112218-rng-runeslots-runeslot-rerolling-and-why-people-lose-faith-in-carbines-developers
Content ---- ---- Sounds like your friends are not playing this game because its fun but rather because they want to achieve something. Thats a dangerous thing when playing mmorpgs. But yea i know what you mean, but using the argument "we didnt get anything from playing walatiki" is a bit strange. When i farmed my blue pvp gear the first thing i thought of was to get my entire set. When i had the full blue gear i started doing RBG's to get enough rating for better pieces. Since you dont just get 300 rating out of nowhere you will be prestiege capped along the way which lets you invest in trying to get a better version of an item you already have. I currently have 1350 rating and on my 6 pieces of T1 pvp gear i have the best possible slots due to using my left over prestiege. Only thing i can say is that if battlegrounds is just a grind for you, perhaps you should try some other aspect of the game? If all aspects of the game is just a grind to you... perhaps you should play some other game? | |} ---- ---- Yes. I am complaining that they put in RNG runeslots ahead of time. Yes. I am complaining that the system they're putting in still has quite a few aspects of RNG. Instead of wasting the time creating a system that still has a poor quality of life for the player--- they should implement one that allows customization. | |} ---- Yes, we are playing for fun --- but things become less fun when it's walatiki temple over and over again. Or when you think, maybe I'll try a pve dungeon, and you realize that you have RNG on loot drops, and then further RNG on those rune slots just to see if it will be an upgrade for you. People just don't want to sit behind RNG walls. Also, no, playing for achievements is not dangerous to an MMO. It is, in fact, a core component. We all play for fun, but take a look at WoW, take a look at Microsoft's games-- just about everything has achievements now because it hits the instant gratification mark and people play MMOs for it. There's a reason why western MMOs use tokens and eastern MMOs use RNG. Casual players and new players want to be able to achieve goals, not sit behind an RNG wall while someone else with better luck stomps on them. Surely you see what I'm saying when people have way more motivation toward achievable goals instead of RNG goals. If I wanted to spend my time playing the in-game lottery I'd just play the real one. Being full earth / logic / life / water on a DPS warrior isn't optimal, period. It's just a waste of time and energy. Gems cost time--- something people will invest if they will have a tangible reward. New players and casuals do not want to spend X amount of time just for an RNG shot at something usable. | |} ---- ---- How is earth/logic/life not useful at all? I'm pretty sure all 3 (maybe 2 I don't remember) offer Brutality options. | |} ---- Brutality is garbage the ap conversion sucks | |} ---- Such a terrible analogy. Loot drops are not payment for you playing the game. | |} ---- So AP or nothing is that it? It's a good thing they're adding more stats to other slot types. My main is a Stalker, I get 0.5 AP per Brutality. Still not nearly as good as straight AP, but an order of magnitude better than any other stat in the game (Strikethrough rating to soft cap excepted). The problem isn't with slots, the problem is that all stats suck compared to AP/Brut for DPS. I also have to have ~2400 AP to do comparable damage to a Warrior with ~1400 AP... so there are scaling issues at which Warriors perform too well. | |} ---- You're right, but currently they offer a lower assault power ratio, and the other options for it are only defense. When the rune changes do come, they will be better, but that just goes with the concurrency problem. Besides, I know we've all heard this one before (It'll be better in the next drop, don't worry, they're going to implement the common sense changes!) However, stacking will brutality on the warrior is still not optimal. I don't know a lot of people that really enjoy investing time in RNG rolls for sub optimal rolls and gear. It just isn't fun and adds to the perceive waste of time. Games like this simply aren't fun--- and the subscriber base shows it. You just don't hear people saying, oh yeah, the game is going to be so much better, we can resub! Partly because there's no reason to, and partly because RNG runeslots were a change that they made before they implemented their functioning system, lowering the quality of the game for a large group of PvPers in anticipation of something else... | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- It absolutely does not turn people away from a BiS mentality for their gear. It makes a piece of gear be either great, average, or a piece of junk. Why? Certain rune slots are absolutely 100% superior to others for dps, heals, or tanking and not having those on a majority of your gear pieces does not make for a more interesting system it means half of your gear is junk and you'll need to replace those pieces with the exact same item but one that actually has the rune slots you want. RNG for drops is fine. I don't mind running something again and again for that one drop. But when I have to run it again and again and finally get that drop and its a piece of shit because of random rune slots. No. Just *cupcake*ing no. | |} ---- ---- Sounds like a problem with your friends' mentality, why would you be getting PvP gear if you think farming PvP is a hassle? Would you prefer you have a ton of prestige and nothing to use it on? You're going to be using it to purchase gear and salvage that gear to use for runing anyways. I'm gonna take a guess and say you have too many war/esper friends, fire/fusion slots being the only highly beneficial slots for some classes is the real problem. | |} ---- red txt | |} ---- Let's do napkin math. Let's say we queue up for practice BGs all day long, to get some gear for our high arena rating that we've spent time on. Since Walatiki Temple is the only thing that pops, and it takes on average 15-20 minutes a game, if we stomp them, that's 300-400 prestige a win. Let's say on average we're trying to roll a 2400 prestige piece. That's 6 games, around 2 hours of winning, just for an RNG shot at an item. So let's say on average it takes about 2-3 hours per piece to reroll for runeslots. That's 2-3 hours of walatiki temple just for a chance to spend plat to rune something up--- or throw it in the bank / salvage it. So let's say we want fire / fusion / air / omni in 3 slots. That's around a 10% chance to get optimal slots, or a 1/4 chance of getting usable but not optimal pieces. So let's highball that. On average it takes 8-12 hours for a an optimal average piece. That's 2 days of playtime for someone who plays a lot, and all week for a casual. RNG *cupcake*ing blows man. Drastic reduction in quality of life for the players. | |} ---- I understand how it is, but I'd take the old non-random system on top of the rune update coming soon before your suggestion. Might as well go back to full derpmode with no RNG on top of a slot reroll. Also, keep in mind you're using T2 prices as an example and T1s aren't as expensive nor are T2 pieces all that great anymore. I've been updating my gear to T2 slowly and the upgrades are very small even IF completely optimal. Anyways, I just see it as a mentality issue, I PvP because I enjoy it not because I wanna farm prestige. | |} ---- I'd also take the old way before RNGslots. But I think runes should be for customization, not RNG. I mean after all we go through RNG to get the piece. I also pvp because I enjoy it. However, doing things that I don't enjoy (such as RNG runeslots, or having an unfair disadvantage because RNG doesn't favor me) takes away from the joy I find in pvping. You see how that works, yea? I really love the design of the pvp, but I think that the way they add unnecessary RNG to this game, or tedium, will be its downfall. | |} ---- ---- ---- Anecdotal evidence of bg performance does not, in any way, have anything to do with RNG runes. However, having poor runes will matter when it comes to killing that healer that has optimal runes, or surviving that spellslinger who has optimal runes. The difference between a dps warrior for example with good runes and bad runes is something like 400-500 ap, or 1600-2000 pvpo. That's a tremendous increase in damage, something necessary for warriors to be effective in a game where ranged does as much damage and AoE EVERYWHERE. | |} ---- Wake up Carbine. Players love customization. Players hate RNG. How could anyone look at this system and see it as anything but a time / money sink to keep players playing longer. A better business model would be to make an enticing game, rather than multiple timesinks. Perhaps that's why the game isn't doing as well as people had expected. Great storyline, concept, humor, and nerdiness, but so far the worst and buggiest implementations of systems I have seen in an MMO in a long time. Do you not have people that look at these ideas and just say, hey, the player's won't like that? Was horrible RNG in the contract to get NCSoft to publish your game or something? I mean let's be honest... I'd like to pose a question: If they scrapped the system they have no / are going to implement and made all of the runeslots Omni slots, do you think people would be upset? In PvE, players fill certain roles and min/max certain slots. In PvP there's a little more room for customization. In RP it doesn't matter because Megaservers killed Evindra, but its all just a giant RNG timesink. What do you guys think about having all omni slots? Or even a system where you had random slots, but the ability to reroll each slot until you got the desired color. You would still have RNG and timesink, but people would actually do it knowing that it would mean something in the long run. | |} ---- Fairly sure optimal runes have nothing to do with killing a healer when you have 10 people, we're even in the low TTK/low heals meta currently... I was being pretty supportive though but now I could care less, good luck. | |} ---- ---- ---- When they implement this, they'll remove a lot of vendor trash / salvage bait. However, wouldn't it be nice if they'd just allow us true customizability? There will still be situations where certain rune combinations will be more valuable than others, as well as some colors being more desirable. Just because something is no longer vendor trash, does not make it optimal, nor a valuable consideration of time. You don't need to min/max to clear content in this game, as evident by the player's progression already. You don't really need any of it, just like playing this game isn't a necessity. However, when you choose to have a system designed for customization of your specific character via loot drops, yet implement a trash system of customization, you kind of show us the incompetency. A better choice in the beginning would be to allow all runeslots / set combinations, and let the player customize himself accordingly. RNG still could have a place in whether or not the rune could be slotted (ie chance to miss), or RNG which runeset you could make an assault power rune into, for example: Create Assault Power Rune: RNG Assassin set, Weapon Specialist, ETC. There are plenty of ways to RNG / timesink runes and the system without making the player feel as if they've totally wasted their time and effort, and that's basically the whole point of this thread. | |} ---- ---- ---- I'm pretty cupcake sure that this was one of the top reasons players left the game. All I've been reading in the forums since players started to reach lvl 50 was "grind grind grind rng rng rng grind grind rng rng". Players even made that hilarious meme that Boni posted which basically sums up WS at lvl 50. Except for the few that left before even reaching lvl 50, MOST players left when they got to 50 and were greeted with a big cupcake wall that players found too boring to grind out. Why cant Carbine understand that we do NOT want to keep grinding for the same gear over and over and over again? If i put in 20 hours of my time to get x chest piece....i do NOT cupcake want to grind for the same x chest piece again because of rngception. However, what players ARE willing to do, is put in more time to UPGRADE those pieces without having to dump the gear they already put in 20 hours for! Its called progression. Having to grind for the same gear again is going backwards. The next part is having true customization like Eclips mentions. Why can't we do that? There is absolutely no reason to deny us that. Give us a system where we can change the rune slot types to whatever we desire! That's a carrot players will actually ENJOY chasing after. The biggest weakness this new system will bring is that NO MATTER WHAT! there WILL be a rune slot type/s that is/are NOT as desirable by the player which is the same weakness as the current system. Carbine you are trying to lessen this I know, but the fact still remains that there WILL be one....you can't beat math. This means that the player is stuck with it unless he spends yet another x hours to grind to the same item again. Do you know how players feel when that happens? Frustration will happen thats what! Carbine you know FULL well what happens when players are frustrated.....simple....they LEAVE THE GAME. We are trying to avoid that remember? | |} ---- | |} ---- You bring up a great point here. MMOs are about progression and satisfaction, not tedium and grinding. | |} ---- ---- I disagree. As you already mentioned. Having to role against 20-40 other players once per week in a raid for a drop already cupcake sucks. Once its my turn to get the piece of gear only for it to have cupcake rune slot types? That leads to frustration and frustration leads to players quitting the game. Have you not seen the exodus already? Players who have never stepped into a raid yet, like me, will tell you that even without participating in one.....having such a cupcake insurmountable wall in front of me, already makes me not want to go through the drama. Note, the exodus happened under the current system. This upcoming new system is a mere tweak of the current one. But you know what? Why do other games still work with a far simpler gear rune system? Lets take WoW for example....can you not find fully top tier geared players in raids? ofc you can. Im sure this is the same for other games. Having a self destruct carrot within a carrot is not a good idea. Having a carrot and then another carrot is a far better idea. The reason players who are fully tiered up show up to raid is because: 1) They like it 2) They want to help other players in guild tier up to tackle future content. Don't forget this is a themepark mmo. New content, unless the game is dead, is always coming. Thats the carrot for top tier guilds and also everyone else. Min Max isn't just about the gear alone. It's about min maxing rotations also. But none said they want to min max without effort. There always needs to be a carrot. This is my suggestion: What if an item dropped so that you could change the rune slot type with said item? For example, the item is an earth item and this item will let you change one rune slot type to an earth rune slot. So Carbine can introduce this type of item for each rune slot type. This would be the carrot players will want to grind for. Not only that, but lets give rune slots a level. Regular and advanced. You can grind for regular, lets call it "x type rune changer" (this x rune type changer can be fire, earth, etc), and this would drop in dungeons and to a lesser extend adventures. This regular x rune changers will unlock rune slots weaker than the advanced ones that will only drop in raids. For balance reasons, it can be made so that each piece of gear, can have x number of the same rune type. There ya go, i have just fixed the problem. But what about PVP?? Have those regular and advanced x rune changers be able to be bought with prestige behind the rating system. These x rune changers will only work with pvp gear. There ya go. I have fixed the problem. Getting top performance still requires a lot of effort and getting the "average" updates can be done rather "easier". All this with only two rngs required. 1) Getting the item to drop 2) Winning the item. | |} ---- "The Burden of Optimal Play" http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EMcNeill/20140721/221443/Grinding_and_the_Burden_of_Optimal_Play.php Players want to beat the game. If the optimal strategy is to grind, then players will grind. Not because they enjoy grinding, but because it is the optimal way to reach their goals. I am kind of split on the random rune slots. I agree that finally getting the item you really wanted and then failing to (re)roll to the slots you want -- permanently making the item sub-optimal -- sucks a bit. On the other hand, if there are items in the game that will always lead to the optimal rune configuration, why not just make all rune slots omni and increase the price of unlocking them? Statistically, given a large number of players, it is highly probable that there are players out there that will fail a astonishingly high amount of times in a row. | |} ---- Mostly nice post but... have you checked the economy forum section recently? :huh: Edit: Ok reading your other posts: You apparently have. Well let me refer you to my previous post in this thread then. Upcoming system is great unless the reroll items are unicorn tier rarity. As for the different tiers of rune slot idea: I don't like it. The system already has a large number of variables. Don't need more in my opinion. Edited September 4, 2014 by Tenner | |} ---- ---- A high probability to get exactly the right slot (which this isn't, just a fair chance to not get a bad slot) just means another RNG layer though, a layer that will allow some (but not all) players to recover from bad luck on the RNG. It will still lead to items that were hard fought for being salvaged, just fewer than today. I would love to see rune slots fully customizable (with effort) and runes removable without breaking them (for a price). The system today with runes that you have to pay to destroy is silly. At the very least make destruction of valuable items free, or even work like salvaging. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Did you see the new element/stat combinations J-Tal posted in part 2 of the post series? You're exaggerating. Unless there is only "perfect" and "meh" to you, which would mean your attitude is the problem. No one cares if you have 25 more strikethrough rating instead of critical rating. This is not the "Omg I am so disappointed, time to quit Wildstar" RNG people are complaining about. Edit: OH, I completely support the idea of being able to remove runes without destroying them though. That is a terrible idea and always has been in my opinion. Edited September 4, 2014 by Tenner | |} ---- ---- ---- Oh hey thanks for being oh so constructive. With attitude like that no one will listen. | |} ---- Id think my post conveys my contempt rather well. This is a wasted thread. | |} ---- You presume this thread in general was constructive. Complaining about a system that is already being updated because you think a game in a genre which is entirely built upon RNG has too much RNG is not constructive; it's venting at best, spam en-general, and pointless at worst. | |} ---- ----